Mark BourisĀ  00:01

Tom Panos Welcome to property insights.


Tom PanosĀ  00:06

Pleasure to be here.


Mark BourisĀ  00:07

I know you got plenty to say. And I got plenty to say you and I have been fairly noisy over the last, particularly last three or four months. Maybe what do you reckon is going on out there? This reserve bank, they continue to put interest rates up. And there might even be some more rate rises, given what happened in the UK last week. And what happened, what’s happening in the US they continue to rate or raise the rates, my personal view on it as they continue to raise rates until they break something, and they’re looking to break something, how do you feel about it, where you think


Tom PanosĀ  00:39

rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer. That’s, that’s what’s really clear about it. So Mark, when I run my auction business, I do all of Sydney. So in a matter of two hours, I can go from the east, in the west or north, out to the western suburbs, out western suburbs, this suffering, this suffering, people are basically now budgeting on a day to day basis to make sure that they don’t miss any mortgage repayments. Yet on the other side of the equation, out in certain parts, where people have got no mortgages, they’re tossing and turning whether to go business class or first class to Europe this year, whether to pay 20 or 35 grand out there. I visited my parents last week, I visited for Mother’s Day, the other day yesterday, but last week, and this lady comes out. They’ve got a unit they bought for 450. They can’t afford the loan repayments because when they got the loan, they were paying 1.9. And now they’re paying I think they told me three times as much. And they said to me, we can we sell it and get our money back. Even if we get our legals and and our stamp duty back. So there’s suffering out there, Mark.


Mark BourisĀ  01:51

And would you buy the argument, though? This is the argument, inflation. And the RBA governor said it quite a few times the inflation is worse on the standard of living of Australians, then high interest rates. Do you buy that argument? And do you buy the fact that he’s playing God making decision who’s going to suffer the most?


Tom PanosĀ  02:15

I don’t buy that. And the reason I don’t buy it mark is 35% of households have a mortgage 65% Don’t. At the moment, he has one tool, one weapon. As I said, Your fair, it’s no different to a carpenter that has got one tool which is a saw everything he says I just that’s that’s the one thing. And I think it’s not working because I think what you’ve got is this vulnerable group of people who may have overextended themselves with the influence of the RBA, encouragement, encouragement. Now, that’s a better word. Yeah, that’s a better word, I should have used that word then influence with encouragement. And this vulnerable group of people are now faced with a situation where their, their their mortgages, not only which they bank weren’t going to go up till 2024, they’ve actually gone up 11 times in like, you know, 10 months, 12 months. So I think the strategy is that, hey, let’s keep putting rates up. Let’s keep putting rates up. But you keep impacting more than anyone tenants, because when rates go up, rents go up. And you’re impacting people that are going to make mortgage repayments, what you’re not impacting is the wealthiest group of people in Australia, ones that are debt free,


Mark BourisĀ  03:37

if people pay the loan off, may even have money on deposit, they’re actually making more money now than they’ve ever made because the interest rate they’re getting from the bank is greater than ever before. Correct. So and also, they might invested in a few properties, there might be a landlord career might be jacking up the rents up as well. So what you’re saying is, and I agree with you, I don’t buy the argument. Maybe in the past, it was correct, but I don’t buy the argument. But it’s


Tom PanosĀ  03:59

a different kind of inflation. So So Mike, if you think about the inflation here, most of the things that are expensive, it’s because I’m gonna have to wait a year and a half to get my Toyota Corolla sent out from overseas. Everything’s got to do with the demand and a lot it was caused by the COVID logistic issues, right. So it’s not a supply chain supply chain. It’s not a straight out inflation that we’ve had in previous years where that’s the problem that’s caused that that’s what’s going to fix it.


Mark BourisĀ  04:27

What about this discussion that and I’ve seen the Reserve Bank, not the Governor of the Reserve Bank, some of the, you know, his colleagues in the Reserve Bank put out articles saying, Well, during COVID Australians pay down their home loans at a faster rate than ever before, and that I think the number is 50% of all Australians are at least two years ahead of their rich sheduled repayment cycle. And Australians saved a record amount of money of two and 50 billion during that period. Do you buy that argument, other words were, were well stocked, were prepared, we’re able to handle these interest rate rises.


Tom PanosĀ  05:11

Partly because I’d say there comes, there comes a time, it might not be three months, it might not be six months, it might not might not be a year. But eventually, it sort of adds up. And you know that there’s normally a bit of a lag between rate rises and impact to someone. So may 2022. Today, they’ve gone up 11 times, if you’d said to me,


Mark BourisĀ  05:38

and for those were five 550 basis points. Correct. So that’s like six to me. It’s like 16 times,


Tom PanosĀ  05:43

correct. Correct. So Mark, the answer is yes. But not for a year. And if this keeps going, and it becomes a one and a half of all spend our money, correct. I mean, you must see it now Mark, I’m seeing it, because I talked to a broad base of people. And I gotta tell you, we’re so lucky in real estate. Because if you look at the volume charging example, last Saturday, there was 300 Less auctions in Sydney than what there was same time. Last year. In Melbourne, there were 600 lease options. So we’re fortunate in pricing, that the supply of stock has been low, if that supply of stock had been higher, and I reckon springs the worry this year, because all the stock that comes onto the market at the moment, we’re protected, low, low listing levels. When those stock levels go up. I’m worried that property prices can kaput.


Mark BourisĀ  06:38

Okay, so that’s a good point. So. So we’ve, you know, in terms of property, price reduction, from drop, peak to trough, we’re looking and I’ve saw the national numbers of Canada, the ABS, or the RBI or someone like that we’re looking at around about nationally, and it’s not, some states have better or worse than others, but let’s say nationally, about 11.7% reduction from peak to trough that trough, there’s more recently. And then of course, over the last couple of months, we’ve seen a little increase a small increase nationally, nothing to write home about, but it certainly wasn’t, you know, devastatingly falling. And as you say, the and part of the reason for that isn’t because people feeling confident, I don’t think it’s because investors to come back in the market because they know they can get better rents. But but also, part of the reason for that is that there are very few properties for sale, because property prices relate to supply and demand. Be like the reason we had COVID inflation supply was down, prices went up. Correct. Demand didn’t increase Correct. Supply decreased. Correct. I’m thinking the same here in the property markets, demand has not increased. In fact, they’ve done everything they can to kill demand off with interest rate rises, but supply has decreased, which can keep prices false falsely high. So you’re now saying that you expect at some stage later this year, for that supply number to increase, go back to normal?


Tom PanosĀ  08:13

Because there comes there comes a time Mark, where there’s a tipping point where people are at the moment people are saying the markets not good? Oh, hang on. Oh, hang on, oh, hang on. But on the other side of the equation, you got people there have not been looking at their mortgage for a decade, who all of a sudden they’re looking at their mortgage, and they’re saying, Okay, how’s this all gonna stack up? Right? So the pain is starting to be felt. That means that we’re gonna have properties that are going to come onto the market. When we have those properties come onto the market. We’re going to see like, I’ll give you an example. So I use an app called CoreLogic RP data on my phone you know, RP data. There’s a simple thing you press market, I can go to every suburb and have a look at volume this year for 12 months versus volume last 12 months. Volumes are key number in real estate market because real estate agents get paid on volume. They don’t care that much about growth like it’s minimal it’s volume. So let’s pick a subject that we both both know Byron Bay volume is down get ready for it as of I checked it on Friday 50% So half the amount of properties have been transacted New Town 15% Quakers Hill around 20% So you’re getting these low volume areas, but I will say this mark, you know that number that national figure of peak to trough Adelaide and Perth doing well are in there. Yeah. So that’s not really living because you’ve take Perth and Adelaide in there. Yeah, Melbourne and Sydney have been more like 15 20% peak to trough right you gotta you got to take that into know


Mark BourisĀ  09:45

that’s why as well as a national but you’re right because Adelaide Perth and not affected and


Tom PanosĀ  09:50

so the issue is that the main equation I look at is the demand and supply curve because I know when some One sells in isolation, not a lot of stock. They do well, when they sell in competition. And there’s like, right now you got a green acre, there’s 45 properties that they could pick, is that normal? It’s more more than it’s more than normal. So what I’m noticing is the lower socio, economic the area, the more the stocks coming on, right. As I sent you off a St. Mary’s, I spoke to Peter diamond, DTS Ray White St. Mary’s. And I said, if you’ve got any mortgage, Aesop’s, he goes the series, because we’ve got a lot of mortgage, Aesop’s. I go, Well, I don’t see it on your ads on He goes, we don’t put it on. And structions are not to put the word mortgage. As a banker, you’d know that you know, you there are reasons why people don’t do that.


Mark BourisĀ  10:48

Well, the reason I do because everyone comes and tries to flog the flood the price down so correct. And and it’s not a good look as if you’re the lender is not a good look for you. Because it’s like you’ve lend to somebody who can’t afford to make the repayments correct. And so there’s a lot of face saving going on in that regard. Tell me what, given that vendors, which is real estate game is to find vendors, okay, you need to find buyers, buyers always come you need to find vendors. And because you get paid by the vendor, not by the buyer. What is it? And you must be doing this analysis? What is it the you’re analysing will tip vendors back into the market and say, Oh, my God, I’ve got to sell now, as opposed to well, I’m not saying the market is going to take off and endorse or say, well, let’s jump in on this bull run, because we’re not gonna get a bull run just yet anyway. What is it you think will make buyers or vendors come back to the market?


Tom PanosĀ  11:50

Okay, so there’s two kinds of vendors that go and sell. There’s the one two and a half 212. And they have to the one to, like, there’s a lot of vendors that want to, but the issue that they have is because of low levels of stock need that if they sold their house, they don’t know where they’re going to go, right. But on the surface mark, it’s actually not a bad time to do an upgrade. Because markets come down. If you’re upgrading a lot of the times, the one you’re going to buy has dropped more than the one you’re going to sell the gap gets smaller the changeover. But what they’re saying is there’s no stocks. So there they have to so what will happen so


Mark BourisĀ  12:30

how might how it might mom and dad and home, husband, wife, young couple, whatever. Let’s sell this property to buy a better one bigger place, whatever the case may be different areas close to schools. Yeah, but love, we can’t sell our joint because where we want to go there’s nothing for sale. That’s conversation. Correct, right? What changes? Okay, how do we change that dynamic?


Tom PanosĀ  12:52

When more stock hits the market, like the more stock brings the more stock, right. So I think that you’ll see that in August, September, where there’ll be options there. Because we do get a seasonal lift in listings, regardless of economic factors. Right. So we know that September is a major listing month, you know,


Mark BourisĀ  13:12

I remember they all went with curries to get about four times as thick ice and no, it was September or just about September. And


Tom PanosĀ  13:19

so when. So Mark, when we was known when Rupert was so Rupert used to come in. So with that News Corp as you know, when Rupert used to come into town, right to, to do budgets, he actually used to come into town to visit his mother, but then he’d come in and say, I’ll do budgets and that everyone knew get pan OS the September Wentworth curious, because when I was sitting in front of him, you got 30 minutes to do your thing. I just put these thick Vogue looking books because they were really, really thick, you know, and, you know, they’re quite beautiful to they were they were and it’s actually we used to call it real estate porn, because it was aspirational. Yeah. Because what I used to do mark, it would get someone that was in a $3 million house and then consider go to a $7 million house or the seven to go to a $12 million house, that there that there I think will start happening. And then you got the second group of people that have two cells. They’re growing by the month, they’re growing by the month. Right. And how do I know the occasional auction conversation I have with vendors that say, I’m not happy with the price I’m getting, but I have no choice. Those kinds of conversations are growing just the last few months so I think those rates compounding layered and layered are now beginning to have an effect on sellers and distressed selling is happening. Do you think


Mark BourisĀ  14:42

there’d be many people are there Tommy that haven’t sold yet? Because they’re still on the fixed rate. And they’re probably there could be investor or owner occupier there on the fixed rate, and it’s quite low. It’s lower than 2% because you know that fixed rate didn’t commit this Add until one March 2020, expired on one March 2023. But it is each person’s loan expires, as you draw it down. So if, you know if I could have got the money if I got the money in 2022 or 2021, therefore, I probably gonna, I potentially could have another year a year to go on a fixed rate. So they’re not going to be under any pressure. In fact, they’re quite happy because they probably get it. If they’re invested, they’re probably getting very good rents, very good rents. And they’re, and then if I’m an owner, occupier, I’m paying not that much in terms of mortgage payments. So as maybe part of the thesis in terms of resupply the market is what is the percentage or what are the number of people who have fixed rate mortgages, and it’s 1.2 5 million people. 850,000 of them expired this year. 450,000, expired 400,000 are expiring next year 2024. As they and they can only expire after one March they could not have possibly have that 2% before March because it wasn’t available on March this year. So we only in May, we’re only two months in. So those are just starting to expire now. But the bulk of them will happen say later this year, this calendar year. Do you think that might be part of the thesis of an increase in supply cuz we’re gonna go shit, we were okay. Before we’re not okay. Now.


Tom PanosĀ  16:23

You’re spot on Mark. And I haven’t thought about this until last week. When by coincidence, three people that don’t work in real estate in the same day, asked me the same moralist question which is do I reckon rates are going to come down at some point in the future. And all three people had one thing in common. They’re on a fixed rate. They haven’t expired, once expired expiring in December, was expiring in January. And one I couldn’t remember. But let’s call it roughly that period. So what’s fascinating is this mortgage cliff that we’ve been talking about for three, four months. There’s not many people that have been impacted as of May, yeah. Right. Like I don’t run into people that say, our time, my variable rate, you know, is now six. So there’s a group of people that now have to make a decision, because they’re three to six, maybe nine months away from having their rate tripled. And I think that that can definitely be one of the factors mark on whether there’s going to be an increase in in supply.


Mark BourisĀ  17:35

I would, I mean, I agree there will be an increased supply. And probably not, I probably wouldn’t say I probably wouldn’t agree with you on September, I think it’d be increased supplies of dinner. But I don’t think we such that it’d be like, big fix, when with Korea days. But I do think, towards the end of this year, because I quickly to a silly calculation, I know it’s not nothing’s linear. But I said, if there are 750,000 people, we’re going to come off the mortgage, fixed rate mortgages this year from March, let’s assume as linear, it’s 112 per month, Around 60,000 people each month are going to come off. And some of those might be at afford the new variable rate, some will be at afford the new variable rate. And I just took a percentage, like I thought will matter, say 20% can’t afford it. So that’s 12,000 People who are going to be put in the in, in the squeeze. And it’ll probably take him a couple of months to realise it, they’ll probably have a crack for a couple of months do their best, you know, stop sending kids to this and that. And, you know, because Australians tend to do that we tend to reduce all expenses, as opposed to selling our property. And so I thought, Well, maybe you know of that, of that 20%, maybe half of them can afford that hang out, just sell their car or get a cheaper car, whatever the case may be, and, and just grind in. So it was sort of looking about 3000 properties with a lag period after the fixed rate kicks in with a variable rate kicks in at the late period of six months. I’m sort of thinking maybe later this year later this calendar year, not beyond September, September definitely will be a seasonal increase. But I reckon the hurt is going to come around about November, December when you can’t sell property. I reckon if the reserve bank doesn’t reduce rates and stays the course that January, February, March next year is when we’re going to see a lot more supply. And again, I think it’d be more I think it’d be the February recommence in how everything recommence in February. Everyone’s going to come back from holidays, and I’ve spent too much they’re going to get their wish insurance premiums or school fees are up. There’s kids got stuff to buy. And, you know, there’ll be I think it’s going to be a big supply property on the market. The question will be, will the Reserve Bank change rates before then what do you reckon? Because there are some commentators out there saying interest rates are going to start coming down towards the end of this year. And I, in fact, also believe, as a chief economist with respect, saying last week that they’re expecting interest rates started reduced by the end of this year. And he’s actually saying seven rate reduction. So if I’m one of these people fixed rate, looking at the variable rate that’s going to come in February, it’s going to my variable is going to kick in October, I think shit, I’m just going to see hoping maybe the Reserve Bank will reduce rates, and my new variable rate will be much more affordable and I won’t have to sell. What do you think about that thought process? Because it’s very complex. It’s very quite complex.


Tom PanosĀ  20:31

It’s very complex, because on the one hand, you do have Bill Evans and a large number. In fact, the Finn review the other day had 36 out of the top 38. Economists, I think they were make a prediction they have delayed, they’re originally they actually thought rates would come down quicker. They’ve now delayed their forecast. Right. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, whilst they’re saying that, we clearly also know you’ve got the Reserve Bank, who it’s not just the rate rise that they give you each meeting that they have, it’s the commentary. And they keep alluding to this two to 3%, inflation, inflation rate band, right. So that’s the one thing in my head that I’m thinking, I mean, I’ve seen, like all this work we’ve done with the 11 rate rises, I’ve just seen the minimal effect. It’s done on inflation. So I’m thinking to myself, Man, two to 3%. Like, is that like six months away that we’re going to get rates coming down? I don’t think so. I don’t think so, Mark, it’s not my feeling. But I can tell you, there are two types of vendors out there. There’s going to be the ones that do the preparation work, and they’re going to say, You know what, like you are right now, you are right, because the three conversations I had, are people doing what you’re thinking, and they’re saying, is that going to happen? That they’re working out? Right? Is that going to hatch


Mark BourisĀ  21:53

on a game? The system? Correct? Correct. Pretty dangerous? Oh, well, I


Tom PanosĀ  21:57

think you’re when you’re, you know, betting against banks and governments are not great bets are?


Mark BourisĀ  22:03

Not really, but I mean, at the end of the day is your bet you are betting the house. So you got to think it through. Yeah, well, the old days, we just Gosh, it’s too expensive amount. Also, we had no insights into what the Reserve Bank was doing. We had no media to read, or listen to, they didn’t have someone like you talking for them to listen to you as to what Tom panellists are saying and various other commentators, there was vital information out there for families to make decisions, there was a lot of information out there. But sometimes I wonder where there’s too much information out there and then just not equipped to make the decision. It’s probably more confusing. What it does. in an economic sense, it creates longer lags. So the lag period for a for the population who was affected, which is mortgage holders, the lag period is longer, before they start to make decisions as to what they’re doing. And one of the things we’re experiencing now, which is not normal, is this lack of property for sale, which is artificially keeping prices up. We’re not artificially that’s what happens when you’ve got demand, sort of greater than supply. It’s not artificial, it’s real. So but, but it’s not normal. That’s probably what’s put away saying it’s not artificial, but it’s definitely not normal. In normal in the sense of numerically normal, we would normally get nearly double the amount of properties up for auction on a weekend, which compared to what we’re getting at the moment, you just mentioned 306 100 900. And we’ve got 900 properties on the market for auction, that normally would be 1800, or a couple of 1000, actually, because you got out in Brisbane and other places. So it’s very interesting. So I think we’re in right now in a bit of a hiatus where we’re sort of, you know, we were no man’s land at the moment. And what bothers me is the reserve bank goes out, well, property prices haven’t gone down. We haven’t broken anything. Let’s put the rates up again, which I reckon was part of the decision to put the rates up last time was because the property market didn’t fall. Yeah. And I think they’ve gone Whoa, hang on a minute. We gotta break this system. I believe they feel as though they’ve got to break something. Yes. Before they stop. Yes. And they haven’t broken anything. But they have done what if they bothered to go out and ask people they’ve broken our spirit? Yes. And broken Australian spirit. They’ve broken Australians dream about owning a property when they’ve already bought something back off the back of what the Reserve Bank Governor said. They broken spirit. And for me, that’s enough. What are you ready to tell me?


Tom PanosĀ  24:21

So back? In 2006, actually, when I when I met you and I but I was unwell for the first time going through cancer I’ll never forget. I remember asking for an oncologist out of everything. What advice can you give me to try and work through this? He said the number one factor has been on oncologist for 35 years. The number one factor is the minute you lose hope the game’s over when you break hope is a big thing with people right? When they get sapped you use the word spirit but I put it along the same lines where you’ve become feel helpless, right? That’s bad for a person And that’s bad because they wake up and they think it’s pointless. Right. And I think Mark, you’re right. I think the reserve, and I don’t want to come across to your members as someone that is hates the Reserve Bank and hates Dr. Lowe. But my issue is you’re spot on. Because what he’s doing is he’s had a look and said, Oh, well, prices went up 1% in Melbourne and Sydney in the last last month, you know, yeah, there’s more room for for rate rises. But if you go at a my, my opik level, if you look down, and you’d look at pairs of sales, a house that was selling at the top for 2 million, is now selling for 1.61 of the reasons it stands to reason every time there’s a half a percent rate rise borrowing capacity drops by 5%. Correct. Right. That’s roughly the form. That’s right. Right. It wasn’t right. So there was a person that could have done 2 million in May 2022, is now to $1.5 million. Yeah. So that $1.5 million person goes to the vendor and says, that’s all I got. Yeah. If I had more I’d pay it. So I think what what they’re doing the Reserve Bank is they’re not drilling down to my opik Lee and saying, oh, Ali and Sara from St. Mary’s bought a property for 600. It’s now worth 450. They can’t afford the loan repayments. What he’s doing is he’s adding all these properties in Perth going gangbusters. Yeah, 10 million $15 million houses right? Going there. Right? They add all those figures there and they’re making decisions on figures that can be misleading averages, you know, averages, very misleading.


Mark Bouris Ā 26:47

Yeah. And that’s an oath of office. That’s the the era of monetary policy. When they rely too heavily on just the raw data. They take data and they do it. And they’ve got all these people 500 Economists sitting in the RBA dualism and analysis, but they haven’t actually gone in a word at the human impact. The be, it’s about changing. All they’re trying to do is change people’s behaviour, all of our behaviours, stop spending, and what I’ll do, I’ll make you pay more on your mortgage. That’s what I’m doing. Yes. And, well, if that’s what you want to do, if you want to play the psychology game, we’ll go out and talk to people and find out how they feel. Because this is Don’t Don’t try and play this game to change our psychology, our behaviour. And then in terms of deciding whether or not we’ve changed our behaviour, just apply data actually asked us about a baby. How do we actually feel? Yes, actually come and ask us. Yes. Oh, send don’t send a data scientists out or an economists out? Sending a psychologist out? Yes. And get that psychology come back and report to the reserve bank and say, Wow, you’ve broken this spirit. Yes, things will be okay. Over time. Yes. Because they’re gonna stop spending. What do you reckon?


Tom PanosĀ  27:58

I think Mark, I think you’re absolutely spot on. The issue I have is, spirit is more broken in some parts than other parts? Right? So the problem that you’ve got is when you’re looking at the spirit. Listen, you know, I heard someone say the other day, out, out, out, out out west, and he turns around goes out west and Leichardt will make like it’s not West mate. Right? Right. Right. It’s not West anymore, right? You gotta go further. You gotta go to Blacktown. Right? You go. That’s, that’s west. What I’m getting at is the Spirit. If you put a temperature thermometer into the spirit of the people there, versus in the spirit of say, someone in the east at the moment, that’s got a $50 million house with zero debt on it, right? You’re gonna get a different answer.


Mark Bouris Ā 28:49

But it’s killing me. I can’t stand. What’s happened here is they’re, they’ve they’ve adopted a system, we’re allowed to continually use a system that is dividing Australia. It’s killing me.


Tom PanosĀ  28:59

And Mark, you know, you’ve come from the west. So you’re able to have a foot in both camps. If you know what I mean, you get a more, you get a more broad base, find out what it’s like, you know what it’s like you’ve been there. I heard you talk on a on a podcast in the air about the early 90s. And what it what it what it felt like for you. The the issue that we’ve got right now, Mark is that spirit 100% is broken. More and more people are falling into the broken spirit category. Every time it happens. And I’m just really worried that the only way the reserve bank is going to stop if they turn around and they think, Well, that was a real hard landing. We’ve got what we’ve wanted. But it might not have to be that way. You know.


Mark BourisĀ  29:50

We’re going to have a new Reserve Bank, potentially new governor in September, October this year, I think, be interested to see what the new approach will be and it’s only a few months away. I’d be interested to see what the approach is. And what would you say to all those people out there struggling? Now, tell me more just


Tom PanosĀ  30:08

a little bit about what you said a few weeks ago. And that is, I don’t think you actually use the exact words, but it’s okay to have to sell your property. Right. It’s okay, we we get it. And I feel for the vulnerable people, because no one put a gun to their head. But I did encourage them. Yeah, they did encourage the most vulnerable people, they might not have put a gun to their head and say, Take money and spend it right. And they did it for two years. And now what they’re saying is, you’re gonna have to pay for what you did, but many of them would not have done that without the encouragement. Correct? Right. So we’re talking about vulnerable people who might not necessarily be getting good financial advice. These are the group of people that always the most vulnerable in society, right? They might not have access to information that I have access to professionals to advise them. What I would say to them is, it’s it’s totally okay for you to sell your property. Forget about ego and pride. If on a practical level, it’s going to be better for you, you should consider that. The second thing is, thank God, there’s a lot of side hustles or overtime at the moment, plenty of work, right? There’s plenty of work, right? The third thing I would say is, now’s not the time. I keep your car two more years, now’s not the time to go off and buy the car and do and do the upgrade, right? Because you’re fighting with inflation, the logistic chain problems of getting cars and so much Yeah, and that’s not just cars, it’s holidays, you’ll be you’ll be you’ll be paying significantly more than have a holiday, whether you’re flying, you know more overseas, and then in a state but even even within Australia, I would say do your damn best to get rid of ego expenses. And even if it’s a basic, even if it’s an accountant to sit down with them and say, Listen, let’s do some scenarios. If rates don’t go down in February, what’s our repayment going to be? Yeah, right to sit down and do situational analysis and say what happens there? Because it helps you a lot Mark to be able to know, I can cope with worst case scenario. But if you can’t cope with worst case scenario, then I’d be selling.


Mark BourisĀ  32:37

That’s the best advice from someone who’s a sage in terms of the property market has been around a long time you saw it all you’ve seen it all. Probably never been nothing like anything like this before. We’ve seen it all before. And that’s great advice. Thanks, Tommy. Tom panellists. Thank


Tom PanosĀ  32:49

you so much. Thank you